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Big Surprise: Human Rights Watch Says UK And Pakistani Agents Colluded In Torture

Fri, 03/20/2009 - 08:36 — Winter

A shocking new report alleges widespread complicity between British security agents and their Pakistani counterparts who have routinely engaged in the torture of suspects, a report in the Observer has revealed.

You can read the whole post here and/or comment below.

Comments

Sat, 03/21/2009 - 12:43 — james

"But for the rest of us, for

"But for the rest of us, for those with enough courage to face our common reality (at least some of the time), torture teaches us to loathe and fear our government.

And that, from all indications, is exactly what it is intended to do."

Exactly! I think Winter has hit the nail on the head (again!) What is generally not recognised is that torture is much more about putting information IN rather than getting information OUT and terrorising the broader population is about putting information IN.

There are many studies into the effectiveness of getting information out that show conclusively that it doesn't work. Yet, it is still used by the would be gods amongst us. It doesn't make sense until you realise that that isn't its purpose. Its purpose is to spread the fear that lubricates the mechanisms of control over a section of society that might be resisting or to cower the whole population or both.

Mass control can only be done psychologically not physically. Torture (though excruciatingly physical) is designed to ensure psychological domination, rather than physical, of both the direct victim and the subsequent witnesses. Physical domination is too easily overthrown. And, ironically (or perhaps not so ironically), reporters such as Seymour Hersh in reporting the atrocities, increase the number of "witnesses" and so spread the fear and its message.

The US nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was not about the physical domination of Japan. That was all but complete by that stage. It was about the psychological domination of everyone on earth including US citizens. It is no coincidence that US corporate domination over the rest of the world accelerated rapidly after Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 23:51 — tsisageya

Fear is the little killer.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bene_Gesserit

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 23:57 — tsisageya

The 23rd Psalm?

I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

Thu, 04/16/2009 - 15:38 — tsisageya

Well James,

I certainly do LOATHE our government. But I do NOT fear it.

These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph.

-- Thomas Paine (The Crisis, December 1776

Mon, 03/23/2009 - 09:03 — Druff (not verified)

Great to see you back.

Keep up the great work.

Wed, 03/25/2009 - 20:26 — medicis

two things

Glad to see you back too.

Also, Jame's comment above struck me as coherent and on target.

Tue, 03/31/2009 - 22:59 — tsisageya

What if...

What if there really were a SUPREME BEING.

What would s/he be like?

Discuss.

Thu, 04/02/2009 - 18:54 — tsisageya

P.S.

I, myself, am a dumbass.

Please never forget that.

God as dumbass? Why not?

Thu, 04/02/2009 - 20:35 — james

Hi Tsisageya

I guess the "Discuss" tag is a little offputting and the question is very broad. To answer your question, the only thing I could say that wouldn't sound arrogant to me would be to suggest reading the Gospels, particularly the words in red if you have an edition that does that. Perhaps start with John and then Mathew, Mark & Luke. (Leave the rest of the Bible alone)
The trouble for me in even suggesting that is that I don't know what your experience with religion has been and I don't wish to remind you of it, or sound like I'm endorsing it, if it has been bad as it has been for so many.

P.S.! If you are reading and contributing here, you can't be a dumbass. And God is not a dumbass, either, and he created you. "Please never forget that" (to quote you back to yourself)!

Sat, 04/04/2009 - 11:36 — tsisageya

Sorry.

I neglected to hit 'reply' on those others, James. Now see? That's a dumbass!

Sat, 04/04/2009 - 09:29 — tsisageya

Thanks James.

The "Discuss" tag was meant to be mildly humorous and self-mocking in its pomposity. Later I realized that it just might be off-putting to one who didn't know me very well. My bad.

I know that everyone has their own ideas about what a Supreme Being would be like, according to the religion that they've latched onto. I wasn't necessarily interested in discussing religion per se, but just to make a list, perhaps, of what characteristics we might attribute to God if we first assume there is such a being.

And no, I don't really believe that God is a dumbass. S/he does have a good sense of humor though, I think. I myself can most certainly be a dumbass however. Really.

So there's one characteristic of God:

1. Sense of humor (a better one than my own it seems)

Sat, 04/04/2009 - 11:13 — tsisageya

Speaking of God and what might be holy,

I think you guys will like this.
http://www.thetalentshow.org/2009/02/24/revolution-1-take-20/

Sat, 04/04/2009 - 20:48 — McJ
McJ's picture

Talking 'Bout A Revolution Songs...Whisper...

Funny you would link to the song 'Revolution'. That word (or the concept) has been popping up for me a lot lately. I think it has to do with my pondering on James' last essay which I interpret in part as a call for us to embark on a 'personal revolution' to free ourselves from the control and deep conditioning we have been exposed to all of our lives. No small task I might add, thanks James smiling. Anyways I have been listening to this awesome version of Tracey Chapman's song Revolution by a group called African Fiesta. It was recorded for the Playing For Change Foundation.

You ask: "What would s/he be like?"

My two cents, for what it is worth:
I've never been able to conceive of God as a Supreme Being having a gender (He/She). For me, implicit in that concept is that there is a Supreme Being outside, or separate from, ourselves. That he/she is Supreme over us. I am more comfortable with the idea of godliness or sacredness as being a kind of divine mood which permeates all that is. While we can imagine what/who this may be (and it is not surprising we cast 'God' in our own image), I don't believe it is knowable. Perhaps it is possible to perceive glimpses as for example within nature.

Tsisageya,
Thanks for the link to the Beatles song - that was fun.
You and I were having a conversation about sacred dance in a previous thread. I thought you may enjoy this clip. It is from a movie called 'Meetings With Remarkable Men' which is about the life of G.I. Gurdjieff. These scenes are from the eastern monastery where he is first introduced to sacred dances. It's about 10 minutes long and there are several dance scenes.

George Ivanovich Gurdjieff (January 13, 1866? – October 29, 1949), was a Greek-Armenian mystic, a teacher of sacred dances and a spiritual teacher. He is most notable for introducing what some refer to as "The Work" connoting work on oneself according to Gurdjieff's principles and instructions, or as he first referred to it, the Fourth Way.

"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 08:37 — tsisageya

McJ,

Thank you so much for these. I've been in love with Playing For Change for awhile now. Thanks for reminding me about it. I hadn't seen this Revolution video. It's all so very sweet and gives a proper twist, I think, to the whole concept of Revolution---as you suggest, as well, in your comment.

Joe Bageant's article, through James' comment on another thread, is awesome as well.

I will ponder these things for a long time.

The Meetings With Remarkable Men was interesting too. Thank you so much. Now I must go research Gurdjieff.

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 10:45 — McJ
McJ's picture

Happy researching

"Now I must go research Gurdjieff."

Happy researching, you may never be back. laughing out loud

"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 05:02 — james

=

=

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 08:38 — tsisageya

James, I'm so curious

I have to ask you what you mean by this.

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 11:18 — james

Re =

Tsisageya,
I originally put the Bageant comment here, then thought it'd be better in the "open thread" thread. So I deleted it here (I thought) and posted it in the open thread then realised it wasn't deleted and had to leave something in the comment space. Hence the =. Of course, I should have left it here in the first place! Glad you liked Joe's article. It says a lot of the things I've been saying and thinking but so much better and more besides.

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 11:44 — tsisageya

I'm sure you've read this already, James,

but it seems worthy to post here anyway. Our friend Arthur Silber wrote The Tale That Might Be Told in February of 08. I tried to post a similar comment on this over at Chris Floyd's place (another friend) but his site is not as user friendly as Winter Patriot's (natch), and I couldn't ever get it published. Trust me, it was a good one! He's got a good article on the G20 "summit". LMAO. It put me in mind of William Black on Bill Moyers (more friends) Friday night. Which all made me think of Arthur's bedtime story. Here you go:

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2008/02/tale-that-might-be-told.html

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 14:43 — tsisageya

But how do we get to the bedtime story,

from here? Winter Patriot from November of 08 (that I'm selecting from another site on which it was cross-posted, don't ask me why), Lost In The Land Of Make-Believe:

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m48914&hd=&size=1&l=e
The election of Barack Obama has seemed to many people like a magic trick -- a wish come true, in some cases the wish of a lifetime.

It's a result that seems to confirm their belief that America is still capable of pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

Many seem to think that Obama himself can pull a rabbit out of a hat -- or multiple rabbits out of multiple hats -- whenever he wants to.

But there's a nasty surprise in all the magic: Obama is the rabbit, and the trick is on us!

Once again, Chris Foyd enters the picture.

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 12:08 — McJ
McJ's picture

comment deletion

I can get in behind the scenes, so I am able to move/delete comments. I don't know if it can be done, but perhaps NJT can tweak the site so users can delete their own comments. Although, I think the = was kinda fun. smiling

"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer travelling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson

Sun, 04/05/2009 - 12:13 — tsisageya

Yes,

I liked it too! It even makes a certain sense now. Good choice, James.

Sun, 04/19/2009 - 12:13 — admin
admin's picture

sorry i haven't been following closely enough

I missed that comment.
I think there is an option so users will be able to delete their own comments, lemme try it now.

hmm it seems like users would have access to delete / edit any comments, not just their own... that's probably why i did not set that earlier.
-NJT

Mon, 04/20/2009 - 19:49 — McJ
McJ's picture

That explains it then.

That explains it then. It is the same situation for deleting blog posts? Also, see mine and Sally's comments on the Leiber post at link - http://www.winterpatriot.com/node/344#comment-3075

"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson

Mon, 04/06/2009 - 03:19 — tsisageya

SHE

Let's talk about HER. Karen Carpenter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87XQKCXfFjQ&NR=1

Wed, 04/08/2009 - 18:36 — tsisageya

By the way Winter,

"What DOES torture teach children."

Please tell me.

Sat, 04/18/2009 - 23:45 — tsisageya

By the way,

would you please sign my petition? It's for my grand children.

http://action.firedoglake.com/page/invite/Prosecutor?stg_signup_id=34740...

Sun, 04/19/2009 - 00:14 — tsisageya

I crack myself up sometimes.

I just went to Whitehouse.gov (sheesh! at the bullshit!) and clicked 'contact us' and asked them to sign my petition. It's for my grand children.

I sure did.

Sun, 04/19/2009 - 00:17 — tsisageya

Then I got the HELL outta there.

I don't know...it just felt 'unclean' somehow.

Mon, 04/20/2009 - 18:21 — Anonymous (not verified)

Up until lately,

I've felt welcomed here---no matter what.

I don't feel like that anymore. How come? Is a Winter Patriot only a man? An agreeable woman? Sheesh, I get enough of that from Twisty.

Comments? Never published. Of course, she has never actually asked me to delete a comment of mine.

Do I have to start a splinter group?

Mon, 04/20/2009 - 19:23 — tsisageya

I left a comment here:

Big deal, right?
I claim copyright, though (ha ha)! http://brilliantatbreakfast.blogspot.com/

Comments:
tsisageya said...

I agree that we are a lost people. When we arrived here, we began raping and pillaging the land and resources, displacing and murdering the people already here, and making our voracious way west in the name of greed, masquerading as freedom.

Now we blow up mountain-tops, pour filth and pharmaceuticals into the water supply, crown Miss USA, build landfills to heaven, and torture people.

This was never a great nation.

4/20/09 8:24 AM

Am I a Winter Patriot, or not?

Mon, 04/20/2009 - 19:29 — tsisageya

I left a comment here:

Big deal, right?
I claim copyright, though (ha ha)! http://brilliantatbreakfast.blogspot.com/

Comments:
tsisageya said...

I agree that we are a lost people. When we arrived here, we began raping and pillaging the land and resources, displacing and murdering the people already here, and making our voracious way west in the name of greed, masquerading as freedom.

Now we blow up mountain-tops, pour filth and pharmaceuticals into the water supply, crown Miss USA, build landfills to heaven, and torture people.

This was never a great nation.

4/20/09 8:24 AM

Am I a Winter Patriot, or not?

Mon, 04/20/2009 - 19:36 — tsisageya

oops.

I'm sorry.

Thu, 04/23/2009 - 19:44 — tsisageya

Joni Mitchell.

Dulcimer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-q4foLKDlcE

Ahoy:
http://the-guitarplayer.com/2008/05/26/joni-mitchell-youtube-big-yellow-...

Tue, 04/28/2009 - 20:50 — tsisageya

Shall I go back and delete all my comments then?

Which symbol shall I use? Apparently my words can be deleted with no symbol at all, by others who, apparently, don't like my words. Who could have guessed?

So, I guess I am not a winter patriot to you guys.

Ask me if I care.

Tue, 04/28/2009 - 22:11 — admin
admin's picture

I wish I knew

What you were talking about tsisageya - you are certainly a winter patriot in my eyes.
As far as I know, there are only a few of us who have access to edit & delete comments but as far as I know, no one has done it to your comments. have they?
-NJT

Thu, 04/30/2009 - 18:42 — tsisageya

Well, I do tend to be a bit 'high strung'.

Please forgive me if I've been too sensitive. I'm sorry. Maybe I saw fault where there was none.

If so, please forgive me.

I do understand that forgiveness 70 x 7 is a finite number but I'm sincere. All you Winter Patriots know by now that I can be a complete dumbass.

Please, don't argue.

Wed, 04/29/2009 - 05:15 — james

.

.

Thu, 04/30/2009 - 18:59 — tsisageya

Lightbulb moment!

What if the 'swine flu' came down upon Israel?

Wouldn't that be a sign of God's humor and justice?

I love it.

Sun, 05/03/2009 - 01:50 — tsisageya

Oh right...

Thus says the Lord.

Tue, 05/05/2009 - 22:08 — tsisageya

I am a Winter Patriot.

http://tr.youtube.com/watch?v=CcRoSmQFUE8&feature=PlayList&p=BDEB7464410...

Anais Mitchell

Song of the Magi

when we came
we came through the cold
we came bearing gifts of gold
and frankincense and myrrh
and there were trumpets playing
there were angels looking down
on a west bank town
and he so loved the world!

wore we then our warmest capes
wore we then our walking shoes
opened wide the city gates
and let us through

a child is born
born in Bethlehem
born in a cattle pen
a child is born on the killing floor
and still he no crying makes
still as the air is he
lying so prayerfully there
waiting for the war
welcome home, my child
your home is a checkpoint now
your home is a border town
welcome to the brawl
life ain't fair, my child
put your hands in the air, my child
slowly now, single file, now
up against the wall

wear we now our warmest coats
wear we now our walking shoes
open wide the gates of hope
and let us through

when we came
we came through the cold
we came bearing gifts of gold
and frankincense and myrrh
and there were shepherds praying
there were lions laying down
with the lambs in a west bank town
and he so loved the world!

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