McJ's picture

Warning: These images are very disturbing and may make you sick!


Somewhere near the Gaza border as the IDF masses their forces....there is music and dancing and wierd horns...

and laughter and celebration...

and lots of drinks and snacks for everyone!
(Remember to bring your shades it's sunny out there.)


(From Danish TV Jan 09/09 - watch at 38 sec for the interview in english)

Keren Levy (Real Estate agent): They Chose Hamas to rule them, it's their fault, they got it to where it is now
Danish TV: Don't you think it gets worse bombing them?
Keren Levy: No I think that is the only solution, I think they should just clear off all the city, just take it off the ground.....Yes I'm a little bit fascist.

God to Saul:
"Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:3).

Flavius Josephus on Saul:
"He betook himself to slay the women and the children, and thought he did not act therein either barbarously or inhumanly; first, because they were enemies whom he thus treated, and, in the next place, because it was done by the command of God, whom it was dangerous not to obey" (Flavius Josephus, Antiquites Judicae, Book VI, Chapter 7).

In Jewish tradition, the Amalekites came to represent the archetypal enemy of the Jews.
The term has been used non-genetically, to refer to certain types of enemies of Judaism and decency throughout history, including Adolf Hitler, and controversially, and rarely ultra-rightists compare the Palestinians to Amalek....Rabbi Israel Hess claimed once that Palestinians are Amalekites.


Finkelstein's point

I would make Finkelstein's point about the use of religion to explain things away. It's useless, it only makes things worse, more complicated.

And personally, as a fan of death metal, I'm more than used to people using texts to condemn, instead of looking at what is actually done. I can read the worst bullshit in the world in religious texts, and still be a decent person.

Jews have coexisted with Muslims for centuries in the past. Yet, the text you used was already there. The Quran called for killing infidels too, at that time. What this tells me is religion's influence is always minimal and depends on the circumstances.

And the current circumstances are due to Zionism. I think this should be our aim.

McJ's picture

Religion's influence

"The Quran called for killing infidels too, at that time"
I don't think the Quran was written at that time but I take your point. Christianity was also a justification for the crusades and the inquisition.

"religion's influence is always minimal"
I disagree that religion's influence is always minimal. While I agree that Zionism is an ideology, it is based on a religion, and it is used to convince one group of people that they are special and that others are the enemy. I think those that lust after power and control have a nasty habit of using religion as a tool to convince us of the 'righteousness' of their (our) actions. That is not to say they do not have other tools in their kit. All the big three religions (Christianity, Judaism and Islam) have provided cover for massive amounts of plunder, death and destruction over the centuries. Why is that? Why do we (the masses) buy into these ideas because after all, it is the masses who are actually killing each other? What is it that convinces one group of people it is OK to do whatever is necessary to drive another group of people off their land or as you commented in the Finklestein thread how "a bunch of villagers can get together, and decide that your house is going to be split in two". Is it tribalism? Fear of 'the other'? What motivated this particular group of people to go there and celebrate the massive death and destruction going on a few miles away? They are obviously convinced of the 'rightness' of their actions.

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Sorry, can't agree

I am in complete disagreement that any text, even repeated ad nauseam, can make you do anything.

The urge to kill, and the death of your soul that required it, can only be imprinted in you by other humans.

Ideology, religion, whatever, they play no role in how much of a monster you are. Your parents do.

The poisonous pedagogy that consists in beating kids up, this is what teaches them to use violence. This is the childhood of all the bloodiest dictators. The childhood of Hitler.

This is why violence is not found in any one particular religious group and not in the others. Violence is to be found everywhere in general, and nowhere in particular, because all parents educate differently. And some will not use violence on their kids, therefore their kids will grow up to be sensitive, and they'll be what most fascists call "wusses." People incapable of harming others.

It doesn't occur to most that it is not he who can't hurt others who's a wuss, but the others who are monsters, who can't feel other people's pain. And therefore are able to hurt and kill. Of course, this only is their ability. They have an urge to recreate their moments of complete submission, when they were scared to death by their father/mother beating the shit out of them. They seek to create in their victims the terror they felt as children. They seek to become their parents.

All this is better stated at Silber's blog. [I just changed the adress, the post wasn't what I thought]

I'd finish by repeating my statement: no ideology can make you do anything. Unless you want to. Monsters' hatred can be directed differently according to ideologies, that's all I'll concede. But ideologies do not create the evil that's already in you, because of what your fascist parents did to "educate" you.

McJ wrote- "Why do we (the

McJ wrote-
"Why do we (the masses) buy into these ideas because after all, it is the masses who are actually killing each other? "

From Arthur Silber again The Roots of the Monsters They Became: How People Murder Their Own Souls
{As Miller says:

"This perfect adaptation to society's norms--in other words, to what is called 'healthy normality'--carries with it the danger that such a person can be used for practically any purpose. It is not a loss of autonomy that occurs here, because this autonomy never existed, but a switching of values, which in themselves are of no importance anyway for the person in question as long as his whole value system is dominated by the principle of obedience. He has never gone beyond the stage of idealizing his parents with their demands for unquestioning obedience; this idealization can easily be transferred to a Fuhrer or to an ideology."}
The rest of the post (indeed, the whole series) is very enlightening.

And for more on what motivates the religious and political leaders, one needs to look at the narcotic and pathological effect of exercising power over others. The intoxicants start to behave as if they were God.

Miller's thinking is

Miller's thinking is profound, and not all that widely known where I've traveled. She and Erich Fromm are the two most believable human psychology theorists I've read, their writing and thinking rings true in the face of all my human experiences. One of Arthur Silber's best things he's done is to spend time writing about and expanding on Alice Miller's theories. I agree with Silber about Miller, the direction of her thinking, and how applicable it is today, and how much it explains about the seemingly baffling behavior of those we have in high government office.

Also worth reading is Robert Greene's The 48 Laws of Power.

Speaking of narcotics

I kinda remember reading somewhere on This Modern World, Tom Tomorrow's website, of a study where two groups of partisans, Democrats and Republicans, were monitored, while having to answer partisan-based questions. It was revealed their brains released a substance (yeah ok that was a long time ago, i don't remember the technical terms) that made them feel good about themselves, when they were answering in favor of their party. I think the post was called drug-addicted partisans, or something like that.

La Boetie's point, for liberty

In all the talk about the war, people have forgotten what was wrong in the first place: the blockade that started as soon as the Zionist State (don't call it Israel) withdrew its settlements in Gaza, the blockade that meant the control of every Palestinians' lives. That prompted me to read this again, from La Boetie. He was living in the 16th century, last I remember. So his words regard the tyranny of monarchy. But since the Zionist State seeks to rule by terror and control, I think the following remains relevant:

Such men must not only obey orders; they must anticipate his wishes; to satisfy him they must foresee his desires; they must wear themselves out, torment themselves, kill themselves with work in his interest, and accept his pleasure as their own, neglecting their preference for his, distorting their character and corrupting their nature; they must pay heed to his words, to his intonation, to his gestures, and to his glance. Let them have no eye, nor foot, nor hand that is not alert to respond to his wishes or to seek out his thoughts.
Can that be called a happy life? Can it be called living? Is there anything more intolerable than that situation, I won't say for a man of mettle nor even for a man of high birth, but simply for a man of common sense or, to go even further, for anyone having the face of a man? What condition is more wretched than to live thus, with nothing to call one's own, receiving from someone else one's sustenance, one's power to act, one's body, one's very life?

** Just realized there was something missing. Added it in italic. Didn't make much sense otherwise.

SMDQR's picture

Thank you for that quote.

Littlehorn, I want to direct you to my recent blog post. Please read it.


I thought this mouse picture was familiar. Ah so you were right here all along ! That was you !

Thanks very much. You do me a great honor Wink

I just finished reading; and I'll repeat myself, you shouldn't have done all that ! I'm just some guy, you know. But thanks, you're very humble, "c'est tout à ton honneur."

SMDQR's picture


that's the rat from the movie Ratatouille, that took place in France . I didn't know you were French, that's cool. And thanks for peeping my blog, and the honor is all mine..

But yea, enough of that.

McJ's picture


Thanks for the links, info and interesting discussion. Does anyone have a suggestion as to which of Miller's books would be the best to start with? I believe anon you may have suggested one somewhere in the comments? I wasn't aware that she had a website so I have begun reading some of her articles there.

"Such men must not only obey orders; they must anticipate his wishes; to satisfy him they must foresee his desires;"
I read in an essay about Hitler that the people around him acted in this way and in many cases he was not telling them what to do they just did what they thought would please them. They called it "working towards the fuhrer".

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

McJ -- Thou Shalt Not Be

McJ --

Thou Shalt Not Be Aware is good for explaining the confusingly hateful perspective of someone like Dick Cheney.

Drama of the Gifted Child explains the general mistreatment of people who might well be the hope of humanity.

The Untouched Key is a sort of link between those two books.

Very good idea to read Miller in conjunction with Erich Fromm's Escape from Freedom which adds a lot of insight to the ideas of Miller's books. Since Fromm preceded Miller in time, it may be better to read Fromm first.

McJ's picture

Thanks anon

Thanks for the suggestions.

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Alice Miller

"Breaking Down the Wall of Silence" - a description-
"Psychohistorical analyses of such tyrants as Hitler, Stalin and Ceausescu have shown the links between the horrors of their childhoods and that which they inflict on the world. In this text, Miller pleads for awareness of society's role in child abuse and for recognition of the victim."

And Arthur Silber's Essays Based on the Work of Alice Miller

More Alice Miller

I could also recommend "Banished Knowledge: facing childhood injuries". It gives background to the analysis used in "Breaking Down the Wall of Silence". If you have limited time (!) however, I'd go straight to "Breaking Down the Wall of Silence"

McJ's picture

:) :)

"If you have limited time (!) however..."
Mr. Green

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

McJ's picture

good friends of German descent

For reasons I have never quite understood, I have had many good friends of German descent during my lifetime. All of them have (or had) parents who lived through WWII in Germany and emigrated to NA after the war. The stories they tell of the childhoods of their parents are not pretty. Many were brutalized by their own parents and forced into child labor on the family farms etc. The parents of one of my friend's mother actually turned in her husband (a jew) to the Nazis (he managed to survive the war in a concentration camp). The mother herself was imprisoned in Germany during the bombings of Berlin and gave birth to her during that time. I have watched them (my friends) struggle in their lives and tragically several of them have died from cancer. I have often contemplated if this had to do with their having 'no context' in which to explain the actions of their own parents and finding themselves in a position where it was them that had to break the cycle of violence.
Hope that makes sense. smiling

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Effects of cruel parenting

Yes, It makes a lot of sense, actually, as I have just recently finished reading Miller's "The Body Never Lies: the lingering effects of cruel parenting". It addresses this very issue. Well worth reading for yourself and your friends.
The book looks at the lives of famous artists and authors and describes the effect of cruel parenting on health and lifespans ; or more acurately, the non-acknowledgement of cruel parenting. Very sobering.

McJ's picture

the non-acknowledgement of cruel parenting

Interesting -- I think most (but not all) of them acknowledged it or were attempting to come to terms with it. Strangely, it (the effects) would show up in what I perceived to be 'unnecessary strictness' toward their own children - small things such as their insistence on proper table manners or taking your shoes off in the house etc. - not necessarily bad things to teach children but they were always a little over the top about enforcing the rules imo or uncomfortable if the rules weren't being followed. This is not to say that any of them were striking their children or screaming at them or degrading them etc. just small quirky things that caught my attention and made me wonder.

And thanks, I think I will read that book for some understanding for myself. As for my friends, as I said many have since died or we have gone our separate ways for various reasons.

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

You wont regret it!

I know you are going to read some of the other titles, McJ, and they are probably better to start with. But I'm sure "The Body Never Lies" will turn on many lights, too.
Speaking generally now, Miller brings into focus many things I'm sure you will know are wrong but puts them into words and points out the far ranging effects of them.

We can often acknowledge things that are or were wrong up till the point that we have to change or remove foundational interpretations of our life, our parents/guardians and institutions in our (interior) world; the paradigms on which we psycholgically stand on and yet are often unaware of. Miller brings them into our awareness and the "legitimacy" and the effects of violence towards small children is one of them. For instance, we are in no way threatened in condemning violence for the degree of it used. But we baulk at condemning any violence; at saying that violence itself is wrong. We are not raised on that notion, are we?! We think it would be the end of us to adopt that attitude.

It is part of the Bushido code that the Samurai who draws his sword has already lost. He has lost by ending up in the situation whereby he has to use violence to defend himself (or others under his protection). If only our societies at large could understand this attitude towards violence and employ it.

But they don't, in large measure, because the Old Testament is foundational to the culture in our societies and it holds up violence as not only legitimate but God's Way in many places. This has infected Christianity and overridden God's Way of Peace espoused by Jesus in the New Testament. Result - generations raised in violence and believing in it's effectiveness and rightness and from that obscenities such as the war on Gaza, Iraq inevitably flow.

I hope I don't sound superior here because I'm not. It's really that I'm talking to myself as I'm aware how deep are the roots of these paradigms and I find it is never ending digging them up and pulling them out of my life and thinking. But doing so is lifegiving and I'd rather pass that on to the next generation instead of what I was taught in word and action.

Here's a friendly bet! I bet you will change the phrase "unnecessary strictness" to "strictness is unnecessary".

McJ's picture

James: roots of paradigms

"I hope I don't sound superior here because I'm not. It's really that I'm talking to myself..."
No and I enjoy what you have to say and happy that you are letting us listen in.

"I'm aware how deep are the roots of these paradigms and I find it is never ending digging them up and pulling them out of my life and thinking."
I think of the 'roots of these paradigm' as core beliefs which are the foundation upon which we build all our other beliefs. If you start pulling on any beliefs you hold, challenging them, examining them, they begin to unravel leading you deeper toward the core. As in the example of examining our beliefs about violence which we put in place in early childhood as a result of our experience. We may not think to examine our current beliefs because we assume they are right or correct never recognizing how we came to them. An even messier affair as you point out, if we add religious indoctrination, especially during childhood.

"I find it is never ending digging them up and pulling them out of my life and thinking"
Me to! and I would also say 'the more I know - the more I know I don't know'.

"I bet you will change the phrase "unnecessary strictness" to "strictness is unnecessary"
Methinks I would lose if I took you up on that one. smiling

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Health is a product of the whole being.

Miller's theory doesn't rest only on her observations as a psychoanalyst. She has found confirmation in the latest research by neurobiologists who have proved the influence of experiences during the first three years of life to the developing structure of the brain.

"For some years now, it has been possible to prove, thanks to the use of new therapeutic methods, that repressed, traumatic experiences in childhood are stored up in the body and, although remaining unconscious, exert their influences even in adulthood. In addition, electronic testing of the fetus has revealed a fact previously unknown to most adults: a child responds to, and develops, both tenderness and cruelty from the very beginning."
Others have observed this, Wilhelm Reich called it the "emotional plague" and tried to show the relationship of cancer to stress and anxiety.
Miller's books and articles have been as liberating as anything I have worked at, though the break throughs can be very painful.
It was painful to give up the fantasy of being an "American", too, so that's part of the deal.
I no longer regard the artificial property lines of the "leaders" as sane, though I am careful not to get chucked into Gitmo for such heresy.

Thanks for the link, Don.

Thanks for the link, Don. That's a great summary and explanation. Those a very good comments, too. I think your use of the word "heresy" is very apt.

I watched 23 seconds of the first video.

After praying to the "Lord", to take away all my "emotion" regarding this matter, and to let me watch the TRUTH unfold before my eyes, I watched 23 seconds before I realized that here lies ABOMINATION.

I will watch no more.

You all are so silly.

You talk and you talk.

Me? I'm tired of talk. I'm ready for some action.

Something for you

Violence is not my cup of tea---


I prefer Dr. King's philosophy (of which Obama knows not). And Gandhi. And Yeshua, if you will.

I prefer tipis on free land with trees, clean air and water, and those who live in peace.


Forgetting the message

...those who make peaceful revolution impossible make violent revolution inevitable. Would Yeshua ask you to obey or ask you to question? What good does those protest signs do? They make you a target. Some of us know better and know exactly what to do when the time comes and exactly how to do it, I've known for years when that time will be and it is closer than you think. Hint: 2nd amendment repealed or draconian gun laws introduced i.e. Rahm Emanuel. I understand fully the teachings of Gahndi and King, but I for one think they were dead wrong.
And remember the most important thing of all...
the second amendment is the only thing preventing them from erasing all the others.

By Yeshua, you mean Jesus?

Would Yeshua ask you to obey or ask you to question?

That Spirit commands me to FOLLOW.

So, I follow.

No, I've never taken LSD.

Pitch: A Native American War Dance in Gaza.

Open: Native American War Dance. Which is best?

Fade to rubble: Gaza.

Davidic dancing, indeed.

Dude..Where's My Car?

Gawsh, sounds an awful lot like the "music" the record companies are pumping out here in Amurika. I would rather Lawrence Welk drop acid and play disco. OY! party time!

McJ's picture

Oy Vey

Oy Vey - that's a scary thought.

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Bob in Prague's picture

Disgusting savagery

What a disgusting display of savagery. Ostentatiously celebrating misery being inflicted on innocent civilians, human beings for crying out loud. If I had the power to do so I would immediately shut down all US aid to Israel and initiate sanctions. Christ on a crutch!

An impression from my 23 seconds

Am I remembering correctly that there was also the sound of a shofar and some sort of "religious" theme?

If there is a God, these are most certainly not his/her chosen ones. I know that much.

But then again, where's their Messiah now? No one ever wants to answer that one for me.

McJ's picture

The ram's horn

"Am I remembering correctly that there was also the sound of a shofar and some sort of "religious" theme?"

Yes, the ram's horn or shofar is being sounded and in many of the pictures and videos I have seen of these obscene celebrations it is being used. I looked it up because I wanted to know why they were sounding it. It was (is?) traditionally sounded at Rosh Hasanah (the new year) and Rosh Chodesh (the new moon) but is sounded for many other symbolic reasons including to announce the coming of the messiah, the coronation of kings and to rally the troops. The bent horn of the ram is considered the 'most pure' because it produces a natural sound which symbolizes the breath that god breathes into human beings. It is considered a commandment to hear the shofar blown and it is meant to remind one of Abraham's willing sacrifice of that which was most precious to him (his son!) which was reprieved by god when he allowed him to sacrifice a ram instead.

I don't know about the music but if you can bring yourself to watch 23 sec of the second video you will see they are dancing in a circle, arms interlocked - or you can just take my word on it.

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Thank you, McJ

They're still sacrificing rams, I see. How quaint.

I will take your word on the dancing, if it's all the same to you.

McJ's picture

Your Welcome

Your Welcome

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

I've done the dancing.

I KNOW the dancing.

THIS is NOT the dancing.

I guess that's the abomination.

McJ's picture


There is certainly nothing to do with the spirit or the sacredness of life in that dance. Strikes me as the opposite in that it is celebrating violent death. I think abomination is a good word to describe it.

"I've done the dancing.
I know the dancing."

Care to share? I would be interested in your thoughts.

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Strange, but true.

The only dancing I feel uninhibited enough---without the use of alcohol---to learn and perform in front of God and everyone is Davidic dancing. I had a bout with it. At the time, it meant a lot to me. The sacred dancing circle community is one that I love. I've never had the opportunity to dance a Native American circle dance, or any other indigenous circle dance, but it's on my list of things-to-do-before-I-die. What a dream.

The spirit of the sacredness of all life.

I think humans have really effed up. AGAIN.


As far as War dances go,

I imagine I would prefer any Native American War Dance to this filth. Davidic dancing is not meant for war preparation.

After all, I doubt that David danced before OR after he slew Goliath. Maybe he did though. I'll have to research that.

If I had the power to do so

If I had the power to do so I would immediately shut down all US aid to Israel and initiate sanctions.

Do I smell an actual boycott coming on???

I've been doing my part, pitiful as it is.

Bob in Prague's picture

"I think that is the only

"I think that is the only solution..." Right, sweetie, genocide is the "only solution" - what does that remind me of???

McJ's picture

'a little bit facist'

"I think that is the only solution..." Right, sweetie, genocide is the "only solution" - what does that remind me of???
And how is one a "little bit fascist"?
The twisted logic is really disturbing to hear.

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Bob in Prague's picture

A little bit fascist

Yeah, that too, McJ! These creeps are fully aware of where Israeli policy vis-a-vis a Palestinian state is going. The "ultimate solution" is ridding the region of Arabs (who are also Semites, by the by) - go figure, Israelis are always ready to play the anit-Semite card, and here they are, busily driving out, or, failing that, exterminating the Palestinian people, stealing their land, and seizing control of the flow of oil from the region, all the while holding the world hostage with their 200 nukes. Man! How are we going to stop these sociopaths?

"Man! How are we going to

"Man! How are we going to stop these sociopaths?"
Not by wasting time waiting for our various western governments to fix it, that's for sure.
Behind our governments are the Zionists and behind the Zionists are the international banks and bankers who get their power form creating and controlling money. But this doesn't give me the answer to your critical question, Bob. But I think that is where we need to start from together with the realisation that these people are, as you point out, are sociopaths and, therefore, are not going to change. They're going to go global with this thing.

Stealing Land

Another illuminating map of shrinking Palestine here
The link comes courtesy of Smoking Mirrors. A quote-
"Wars are just a matter of business. They have nothing to do with the reasons given. They are about stealing land and making money and that’s all there is to it. You can complicate the issue, especially when you are the one stealing the land and making the money but it’s all about theft of some kind."

McJ's picture

Love Les...

Great quote from Les - the whole article was good. He offered this great piece of advice in the comments to that post.
It is impossible to convince anyone of the truth who is in denial of the truth. For my part I state what I believe and I leave it at that. There is a mysterious power in the truth. It is like a depth charge. When you speak it it drop into the water of the human mind and descends to a certain level where it explodes.

Do not expect people to believe you at the time you tell them anything. It is enough to speak the truth. if you speak the truth with conviction it will enter the mind and do its work the same way a seed does below the surface of the Earth. it is a magical act. Proclaim it and then leave it alone. If you keep digging into the Earth to see how the seed is doing you will kill it.

It is said that "faith is the SUBSTANCE of things unseen." operate from that premise. It is in expecting immediate results that you disappoint yourself. Just speak with assurance and believing what you say and it will find its way to arranging the thoughts and awakening the realization in the mind to which it is spoken.

OT but I am reading Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason" right now and loving it. It gives me hope.
I have a tired brain right now so I am not sure if I could put into words why buts it's got something to do with truth and maybe some of what Les said smiling .

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Yea, Les writes extremely

Yea, Les writes extremely well and comes up with some info packed phrases. That quote is heartening.

This cartoon from Mr. Fish says heaps, too. Look forward to your thoughts on Mr. Paine, too.

McJ's picture


Is it ok to laugh at that??
My thoughts are a jumble right now!! Gaza, Palestinian history, religion, psychopathy, the economy, Canadian politics etc etc and of course a whole bunch of everyday to do's. I need a roadmap sticking out tongue "I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

Excellent quote

That's a great quote and I've always been thinking exactly this. I have a very stubborn brother, and he used to get irritated very often (he's changed lately). And I found that the best way to deal with him was to simply make your point and then ignore his rantings (which were a pain in the ass to ignore). Almost always, he'd come back an hour later and apologize.

Another way to say this is that everyone comes freely to a position; not because some guy shouted at you, as some illustrate by their behavior when trying to defend their position. A lesson imposed is a lesson lost.

SMDQR's picture


that quote perfectly expresses the sentiment that I have right now. It relates to this protestant hymn that I came across on a blog a couple of days ago. I'd post the link but I forgot which blog I got it from. But I got the quote..

Know this, that every soul is free
To choose his life and what he'll be;
For this eternal truth is given
That God will force no man to heaven.

He'll call, persuade, direct aright,
And bless with wisdom, love, and light,
In nameless ways be good and kind,
But never force the human mind.

Re .... or how Love grants Freedom

SMDQR, the words of that hymn are brilliant. I'm gunna save 'em! They point out beautifully how anti-God (antichrist?!) coercion and violence are. Thanks for posting them.

Really good site I recently discovered.

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