Christmas And The GWOT [2]: Personal Salvation And National Destruction

I think I'm mostly feeling alienated from Christmas during the GWOT because of what goes on in church.

You can read the rest here and/or comment below.


Truth about war.

Yup, and that is why THEY have churches worth a few mil and YOU have a free blog.

I don't go to church much, but I do read your blog!

Maybe those ministers envy you and turn in their beds at night.

Well said

Winter said...."It's about the insanity." BINGO!

I've been at the pointy end of dealing with evil in my life and it's always the ab-sol-lute sheer ef-fin lun-acy of it that gets to me. NONE of it in this world was and is necessary. It is ALL based on lies and deception and it breeds more lies and deception. Nothing is real. Everything is upside-down, inside out and back to front. When I started to deal with the consequences in my own life, I felt I was "stepping into the looking-glass". But after a while I realised I was stepping OUT of the looking-glass and into reality.

I cannot go to church now because I hear this back-to-front world constantly being reinforced and the Gospel of Peace constantly ignored or twisted. But then, that's what State and quasi-State religions will do. They are attracted to and serve Power and twist minds and reality in the process which is the antithesis of what Jesus was on about.

No good reason to celebrate.

Just a brief disclaimer first: I can't make any informed comments because I've never stepped foot in a church. And it's not cause I'm a bad Christian. You'd think that would disqualify me from adding any statement, but I can be pretty persistent.

There is an obvious lack of spirituality during the Christmas season. Even in the Church as you say, where the passages quoted aren't filled with any passion or vigor and the preachers don't speak from any sense of right and wrong on militarism, war and peace, and foreign occupation. The Church is the one remaining place in our society today where we expect some kind of spiritual education, a place to remind us every week why we should be committed to peace, truth, kindness and other unamerican principles. Like you said, the church is a place where we want to be "reminded that what I do to the least of my fellow humans, I also do to God."

Once you've 'woken up' to the insanity around you, it's hard to celebrate. If you believe that your existence is grounded with a five year old Iraqi children who's arm has been blown off, it's hard to celebrate. It's unimaginable to celebrate. Maybe in the future, when we can be satisfied, as a country and as a people, and as a species, of our deeds and accomplishments, maybe then we can truly celebrate the Christmas season.

I wholeheartedly agree, that at the present time, no reasonable sane man can partake in such as a folly-o-jolly season. Hopefully, in the future, after much work and struggle, you (and I include myself in this too) can celebrate, knowing that the people of Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, and the rest of the human family can too join in the celebration.

Who0o0. That was long-winded. I told you I was persistent.


Finally someone put into words why I have been avoiding church for the last year. I have faith, I talk to God, and used to go to church regularly. When I went to church for the last time around Jan 1, and when the most "faith producing testimony" for the new year was how the associate pastor's faith was tested in selling his home and then purchasing an upgrade, I just had to puke. Where are the voices crying out for the weak, the poor, those getting blasted out of their homes by bombs made in the US of A? No, the mega church's largest labor of love seems to be the rock concert during the service, and the water supply for our lawns.

My wife thinks I have a bad attitude. I agree, I have a bad attitude towards those who typically call themselves evangelicals-they got blindsided by GW Bush / Rove and don't even have a clue. God help me should I become that blind, just shoot me or something.

I still have hope for those of real faith, I know they are out there, you just have to look hard to find them.

Well said, WP

I'm with you 100%.


Some have heard this guy
I saw it the other day...9/11 truth in a catholic church. You won't see people like this around here (in Hickita, KS) 'cause they all like the Palin McCain types, and think Muslim 'turrists are out to get them and worried that gay people will marry and move in next door, above all they worry that someone might actually have a good time and enjoy themselves once in a while. The Vatican types around these parts don't question; they just obey. Remember, I live around the Fred Phelps crowd, the southern baptists, witch are some of the worst people on the face of the earth. I always interpreted that the body itself was the church/temple anyway.

Being Catholic

Ho, ho, you should try being raised Catholic. What preached in church is all about the the sin, the evil, the horror of abortion. When the church starts getting as passionate about murdering children already born, I'll consider going back to mass.

Why I Haven't Gone to Church for 20 Years

I guess some of the comments on the previous thread might have been more revealing about the commenters than yourself, WP!

Sounds like you have a good community of people around your church, but the institution itself is what it is. Maybe you should print off this post and hand it to your pastor?

I tend to think of the "real" church as a community of souls, unbound by any institution or dogma or creed or even necessarily a belief in Christianity. It's the values that we share that bind us together.

So from far off Australia, I wont say Happy Christmas, but just remind you that my best wishes are with you and your family, as ever.

a different approach

Thanks for all the very thoughtful comments ... I do appreciate them.

I don't think printing this post and handing it to the pastor would do any good ... the tone of ths piece is all wrong ... and a different approach is required ... but I'm working on it ... Wink

I hope to have more to post before Christmas, but just in case: Best wishes to all my readers and their families.


The sun

Jesus is the personification of the sun. Watch part one of Zeitgeist for free online at There's also a good video called Sun of God at

Here's a "tone" that won't be printed here.

But I will say it anyway.

I am so fucking sick of MEN. I am fucking sick of PENISES. I am so FUCKING sick of men's desire to stick their motherfucking dicks into any motherfucking HOLE they find convenient.


I am sick of this bullshit, I am sick of evil. What? I don't KNOW what is fucking evil?


I know.


newjesustimes's picture

did you want it to not be

I think there is good and bad (evil) in everything. the yin-yang thing.

Anyway I guess this is not a family site any more haha. WP can decide if he wants to censor these comments, personally, I'm not offended.


I guess I wanted to have my say-so but didn't actually believe that my dear Winter Patriot would print it.

I know there are men that are not like that, Winter Patriot being among them. I was actually afraid that I would be banned forever from this site for saying such things.

As a woman, I truly appreciate a man who can hear me at my angriest.

I am verklempt. Thank you, WP.

As always.

As A Man, Tsisageya...

I really appreciate you saying that, and respect you for it, and agree with you totally.

I'm just a bit concerned that you feel for some reason you don't have the right to say it.

HINT: If thy rude words offend thee, ed*t the*m w*th aster*sks! Wink

You might enjoy reading an Arab Woman's Blues, if you do not already know the blog:

Now there's a gal who knows how to let rip - at anyone and everyone!

Thank you, Gandhi.

I will investigate.

By the way you have given me much teary food-for-thought with

I'm just a bit concerned that you feel for some reason you don't have the right to say it.

I will ponder this.

So gandhi,

you think you know me?

After all that?

Thanks, newjesustimes.

I'm glad.

I like the focus and

I like the focus and direction of your passion on this subject, WP. It would indeed be good to see the temples of Judaism and the churches of Christianity start focusing on peace, and the sanctity of lives already in existence (nod to Rosemary Molloy's wise comment on the RC church). In 1999-2001 I experimented with the Presby church in my town, my first experience in organized religion, done as an adult in his late 30s. What finished my tenure was the focus on materialism and justifying "the American way." I couldn't stand it, they'd read from the Bible and distort it to materialistic, jingoistic ends.

Please keep writing in this vein. It's much-needed commentary.

Best wishes to you WP

I'm not a good writer so I know I will sound trite but your post nailed my own personal thoughts completely. I fantasize all the time about opening the Bible and asking your question to my evangelical family. Why John 3:16 and not Matthew 25? I don't because I know at this stage it is impossible for them to shift gears. So I dream in silence and feel very far away from their perception of the world and from them too, I suppose.
I try church but my hope for radical words of justice and truth is not answered and I give up quickly. I admire you greatly for trying.
Finally, because I am a Christian and because Jesus' life and words resemble all my hopes for this world, I allow myself to be comforted by His spirit. Otherwise, these days, my church is Louis Armstrong singing What a wonderful world. If he could sing it like that, I can sometimes believe him.

thanks and the same to you

I appreciate all the support and the very thoughtful comments.

(It may be a little bit interesting that since I started writing about Christmas and the GWOT, my readership has been at its lowest point in more than two years! I don't think my hit-counter will ever influence the things I write about or the things I say about them, but I do think that's a little bit interesting.)

I don't think there was anything trite there, christiana. There's no need to apologize.

And the same goes for SMDQR; you don't have to have grown up in a church, or even set foot in one, to be welcome here, nor for your point of view to have value. It's not about being churched or not, in my view; it's much more about being connected to [or severed from] your basic humanity.


Perhaps you would like this, as well. I know I do.

Blessings Peace and Light To All Every Single Day

Hey Winter Patriot/'s

I can really relate to your problem re writing. It's my weak point but I still have a go sometimes.

I don't go to church. Have read parts of the bible which mean a lot to me but know If I spoke my truth in that place I would not be welcome and I'm not the silent type.
As you say Winter, the idea of suffering silently is not helpful one tiny little bit. Silence allows continuing abuse and you have to wonder why people promote the idea. One reason is they just don't want to know your problems.
Improvements in our society have come from speaking out, often at great personal cost. Government protection through the law and social programs is much more effective than the church because the burden of those who suffer is shared. When people turn their backs on someone sick or homeless it may be because they don't feel strong enough to carry that persons load. Socialist governments help the less fortunate, the elderly etc throught taxing everyone so that the burden is shared and bearable.

The religous right aren't generally fans of socialism and I guess this might be because it replaces the help that churches used to offer and loosens their control of society. I would rather accept a hand out from the government than the church as that means I don't have to pretend agreement with their often looney interpretations of the bible.
I do believe in god but justifying the suffering of others with the idea that there is justice and heaven after this life seems like a cop out.

Spiritual Religious Cop-outs.

1. There will be justice and rewards in the next life.

2. Karma. You are being abused because you deserve it. You must have done something really bad in a previous life.

3. Wanting justice means you are vengeful.

4. Everything is predestined so there is no point doing anything about it.

All these statements mean " I don't want to know." but many folk may genuinely believe these ideas.

Blessings peace and light to all every single day

Chris Floyd's Database Crashed

And he lost a whole heap of recent work.

End times are coming - for the Bush administration. Undersea cables are being cut. Cheney is admitting to crimes so that Bush can pardon him (and hundreds of others) before he goes out of office.

Not that Obama would really pursue them - it just takes the pressure off Obama to do anything. And a few Dems like Pelosi will be pardoned as well.

It's people versus power, same as it ever was...

Cables Cut


Thanks for the info re more cables being cut and about chris-floyd. Please post if you hear anything more about those cables or if Chris has any further problems.

Thou Shalt not Kill


Agreed that "thou shalt not kill" should be being taught in churches and everywhere else for that matter.
You are right that many Christians use their belief that christianity allows them to sin, that Jesus has already paid their debt and died to allow them to do it (sin) with no consequences.
I do however believe in individual relationships with the creator and don't think it necessarily means folk will make up new rules to suit themselves if given proper guidence.

Dear Christiana,

Your comment moves me. You seem like a sister.

“The last Christian died

“The last Christian died on the cross”


This is correct.

McJ's picture

I liked this post

I liked this post WP. I have thought about it a lot over these past few days. Since my childhood, the only times I have gone to a church is for weddings and funerals so I don't know much about what goes on in them these days.
I have fond memories of my church days but they are mostly about the building (our church was a spectacular piece of architecture) and the music (cause I sang in the choir). Even as I young child I never could buy those bible stories they taught us in Sunday school - no matter how many colouring books they gave us smiling. I always wanted to know the how and why (how exactly did Moses part the Red Sea, why would God ask someone to kill his own son...???). I guess I wasn't very good at the faith stuff. I do remember that emphasis was put on things such as being a good neighbour and helping those that were less fortunate. I can't ever remember being taught that Jesus was a personal saviour but then maybe I heard what I wanted to hear. I have taught my children that if anyone is preaching to you that someone or something is going to save you that's your sign that you need to get out of there!!
I believe there is a creative force behind life and the universe and I do seek to understand it in my own way however, so much evil has been perpetrated by religions in the name of God that I not convinced that we should allow churches of any denomination to teach anyone anything, especially not about the really important stuff!
Just my opinion...

My sincere wishes for health and happiness for you and your family - today and all the days of your year
Cheers beauty, eh
"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

GWOT [3]

Good post, WP. You addressed a lot in a few words and I couldn't agree more. I'd like to comment specifically, though, on one HUGE issue no one will go near.

You wrote-
"Now we're supposed to believe that this horror is justified by the president's claim that God speaks through him. Oh really? What kind of God would tell anyone to do this?"

I understand that this is largely a rhetorical question BUT! I'll answer it anyway. There are a number of gods who would order this but the one that is most culturally relevent to us is the god who pops up repeatedly in the Old Testament. Look, for instance, at the Book of Joshua (or the Book of Genocide, as I call it).

Jesus said that he and the Father are one; that if you have seen him you have seen the Father. In other words, they have the same nature. Now I challenge anyone to make a convincing argument that Joshua was listening to Jesus (or any God who has the same nature as Jesus). Apart from the violence perpetrated against their neighbours, now enemies, there is the violence the Israelites brought upon themselves. Imagine a society wherein ALL the military aged men (and probably younger) were returned soldiers who had indulged in massacres!
A loving God ( a God "in whom there is no darkness) could not do such a thing. It should be self-evident.

Mark Twain's War Prayer


"O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle--be Thou near them! With them --in spirit--we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with hurricanes of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it--for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."

Found at:

McJ's picture

What is man?

Man is the only animal that deals in that atrocity of atrocities, War. He is the only one that gathers his brethren about him and goes forth in cold blood and calm pulse to exterminate his kind. He is the only animal that for sordid wages will march out...and help to slaughter strangers of his own species who have done him no harm and with whom he has no quarrel. ..And in the intervals between campaigns he washes the blood off his hands and works for "the universal brotherhood of man"--with his mouth.

- What Is Man?

Mark Twain

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v



That's two points. That's a straight line. Twain's on our side!

McJ's picture


Very good! smiling

"I set it down,
That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain..." -- Shakespeare, Hamlet, I, v

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