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- 2020: A Propaganda Masterpiece | Perspectives on the Pandemic XVII
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- Mike Johnson's 9/11 moment: The House speaker comes through for the World Trade Center Health Program - New York Daily News
In the meantime, . . .
there's this great article up on ZNet called "World Can't Be Changed Without Fighting Western Propaganda" By Andre Vltchek. (I came across it via Palestinian Think Tank).
"In a way, control of information is now much more complete in the United States or UK or Australia than it was in the 1980s in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Poland. There is no "hunger for truth"".. . . .
"In the meantime, while our intellectuals are collaborating with power and getting rewarded for their efforts, great parts of the world are bathed in blood, starving, or both. Collaboration and the silence of those who know or should know is partially to blame for the present state of the world.' . . . .
"I think about all successful revolutions of the past - they all have one common pre-condition: education and information. In order to change things, people have to know the truth. They have to know their past." . . . .
The comments are interesting, too. They get sidetracked into discusing Orwell's attitudes until Keith Harmon Snow brings things back to the topic and reality with a thump in his comment entitled, "Consuming Propaganda, Creating Mental Illness".
From his comment-
"What is most stunning is the extent to which people who otherwise should or could know better are influenced by propaganda and, therefore, lost, but who believe falsely that they are not influenced, and found. This can be equated with imperialism but more precisely with white supremacy."
Both the article's author, Andre Vltchek and Keith Harmon Snow touch on the insidious nature of propoganda in its ability to infect our thinking without our becoming aware of it.
I have read of studies that have shown that even after victims of mind control have become aware of the exact nature of the abusive treatment they have undergone, often still think the implanted thoughts are their own. (I have found this to be true in my own experience.)
A common example of this can be had when listening to people regurgitate the nightly news as if they understood the history, facts and logic that led to the 'headline' or 'bottom line' that they saw and heard last night. They just repeat what they heard and never giving a thought to the fact that they have never given a thought to what they heard or what they are now saying.
Robotic thinking. Mind control is an everyday experience.
Ummm . . . ah, have I ever mentioned that throwing out the teevee would be good for your mental health? 
Comments
Thanks James
I enjoyed the article. Quite a state of affairs. I know some seemingly intelligent people who practically worship the more intellectual of the right wing pundits out there, and talk about how "the left" has done this and that to destroy America. Just incredible the BS people will swallow whole.
-NJT
Yup
"Just incredible the BS people will swallow whole."
Quite amazing. I guess Arthur Silber would call it 'controlling the narrative', NJT.
You float along till one day the thought occurs, "Hey, maybe that ain't Grandma under that bonnet". Now the teeth have a different meaning. The narrative suddenly doesn't hold sway anymore. The spell is broken.
The mind is a very curious thing, indeed.
The Elites Propaganda War
NZ is under attack from the same BS propaganda with the word socialism being denegrated on Kiwi blogs and sometimes in parliament by people like our PM Mr Key. The anti-socialists ( agents for the elite ) are promoting hatred of welfare beneficiaries and other misinformation etc. Its working here to unfortunately.
Same old same old
Divide and conquer, eh Sally!
good find, James
That's a great article indeed, and a really good comment from KHS puts it in good perspective. Thanks for posting it; I urge everybody to read it very carefully, more than once if possible.
Thanks, Winter
Yes, there's certainly a lot in it - kinda distilled or concentrated. His powerful points just keep cascading, one after the other.
This point that I quoted above -
"I think about all successful revolutions of the past - they all have one common pre-condition: education and information. In order to change things, people have to know the truth. They have to know their past."
gave me hope and encouragement; that what we are doing here and what others are doing elsewhere on the net, is very necessary for meaningful change to happen. And the net is the only place it is happening to any degree. Which means that without all of us, it just wouldn't be happening.
Faith is believing the things unseen
I notice that under "Who's New" on the side bar that there are a few new "who's". A warm welcome to you.
propaganda, Uh boy........
Don’t get me started on “Propaganda” or I’ll be here all day. In the above post this was said:
“"I think about all successful revolutions of the past - they all have one common pre-condition: education and information. In order to change things, people have to know the truth.”
>>>>>However, the real problem is just where this “truth, education and information” is coming from. Now this is exactly where the US excels in its newly created type of propaganda. I’m talking about the use of the internet here.
Additionally, politics and campaigning has benefited from this new form of propaganda. As a someone who is no stranger to political strategy, I found Obama’s campaign to be using this new form of propaganda. Again with the assistance internet groups and online social sites.
Let me preface this by saying I am not a supporter of American Republicans, but I do support the truth because people should know what they are dealing with. For way back in 2004 after another failed attempt at taking the Whitehouse, the DNC got busy. Moveon.org, the DNC and a University think tank did a study on how to win votes and what type of candidate would best be able to influence people using language that would affect the voters. We saw this with the "hope" "Change" and "we are the ones we've been wating for" language. Also they wanted to find specific types of voters who would then go out and influence others to vote their way. These people are called “influentials” Now given this study was done in 2004; the internet has grown ten fold since then. It is my view that they have continued to hone this strategy since 2004 and it was used to elect Obama. Because of that success it is now being used for all sorts of other areas as well. Like foreign policy and influencing foreign elections. It’s a much cleaner way of waging war than with an army of soldiers.
Here’s the 2004 study:
Kern, Montague (2004) Web and mass media campaigns by political candidates, MoveOn.org and the Democratic Party in the 2003-04 Presidential Primaries: struggling for votes and unity in a year of web innovation. In: Elections on the Horizon: Marketing Politics to the Electorate in the USA and UK, 15 March 2004
Paper given at the conference "Elections on the Horizon: marketing politics to the electorate in the USA and UK", a one-day conference co-sponsored by the Eccles Centre for American Studies and the Haworth Press Series in Political Marketing, held on 15 March 2004 at the British Library. Submission title: Building an echo chamber in the 2004 US Presidential Primary Season: Engaging the Webizen in marketing campaigns on candidate centred and political websites and email
read it all here:
http://sherpa.bl.uk/2/01/PMKern.pdf
And finally, this statement below from a propagandist who worked for the Government:
Propaganda in a democracy establishes truth in the sense that it creates "true believers" who are as ideologically committed to the democratic progress as others are ideologically committed to its control. The perpetuation of democratic ideals and beliefs in the face of concentrated power in propaganda institutions (media, political institutions) is a triumph of propaganda in modern American society.
Welcome, Irish (if I may
Welcome, Irish (if I may call you that).
Yeah these papers and submissions on how to use the internet as a tool (or anything as a tool, including those on two legs) give me the horrors. And it is because the authors and the audience have no idea that the whole field is wrong. That they are setting out to manipulate people; that there is nothing wrong with this and that this *has* to cause more problems than it solves. But then, their only problem is power - they just don't have enough of it
That last quote you quoted! doesn't read quite right. I think the author has read one too many of his own bullshit papers. But in essence I think he is trying to say that unreality has triumphed over reality; lies over truth. Am I getting that right do you think, Irish?
I read it differently, James
I had to read that quote twice ... but as I understand it, the author is saying -- correctly -- that lies have triumphed over the truth, and especially in this sense:
Given that all the effective power is concentrated in the media and political establishment (and not with the citizens), the fact that so many citizens still believe fervently in their (worthless) "democratic institutions" is a victory of propaganda over reality.
In other words, if we realized how little power we actually have as voters, we might be less determined to try to vote our way out of this mess, and then we would be closer to doing something about it.
Maybe Irish (how about I4P?) has a different viewpoint, and if so I'd like to know what it is.
Winter
I agree with your take except about the voters not having power. They do, (well until the government starts faking vote counts that is) but the trouble with people voting, is no one wants to back a looser. Here is exactly where the media (and internet) can play a part in spreading propaganda for a candidate, or smears for a candidate. People don't want to throw their vote away, and so end up voting for a candidate they think has a shot. And how do they decide this? By looking at polls and listening to the media. And what drives the polls? the Media. A vicious circle
funnily enough, if there WAS no media people would then vote their real choice, and as a result lesser candidates would end up having a better chance of rising up the ladder.
Ireland tends to be very much to the left in most things politics wise. My party is very much to the left. And as such we'd be drawn to Dennis Kucinich, but he will never have a real chance because he does not play ball with the huge lobby groups. And what's funny is that the majority of Americans claim they want people in office who are not under the control of lobby groups, yet they vote each time for that very type of candidate.
sorta does yur head in:)
And this...
In the North of Ireland, when we have elections, each party gets the same amount of TV airtime, no more, no less. Each party makes a political party broadcast which is played immediately after the nightly news. For instance, todays may be for Sinn Fein, tomorrows for the DUP, next day for the SDLP, etc. The only extra time a candidate may get is if they appear on a news program, radio show, etc. And a party can complain and ask for a rebuttal if they were not properly represented in a radio or TV news show. No political donations either, each party spends the same amount. Parties can canvas and put flyers through doors and have mailers and such, but airtime is limited to equal time. So lobby groups cannot get a strangle hold. Of course there is still corruption, once a person gets into office they can be bought or influenced, people are human LOL
We have a very much "on the ground" approach. We canvas and knock doors and map out areas of our support. So it’s a real hands on approach and relies less on media than America for instance.
Imagine if America did away with all the lobby money and election money. When I think of what obama spent on that Greek Temple thingie for his coronation I cringe. He could have fed thousands of homeless people for years with thsoe millions...So much for Mr Change.
I love so many things about America, but American politics is not one of them.
Still, you have Fritos and we dont!! I ate them once and loved them LOL no fair.........
you make my point!
Things in the USA are not as they are in the North of Ireland -- and not remotely close. It's been a long time since we've had a major (federal) election, or an election of any kind, where the results were NOT tampered with. And that's aside from the mind-fxxck that goes on, where the voters see the candidates through the media lens, and in no other way, and the media lie about all the candidates! They tell flattering lies about candidates (or office-holders) they like, and they tell vicious lies about the others. So in addition to electronic voting machines that give the voters no receipts, and leave no audit trail, we also have monolithic lying about every single candidate who is permitted to partake -- and those who are deemed "beyond the pale" are routinely and forcefully excluded.
The only power wielded by American voters is the power to change the names and the faces of the people who are running the war machine. The notion that we can change the system from within -- by voting -- is a dream, a hopeful but debilitating dream, deliberately fed to us non-stop in order to keep us hoping for change we can believe in, because we are the people we've been waiting for.
~~~
In other words, I think the statement is exactly true. And it's easier to absorb if you look at the phrases individually, and in a different order:
in modern American society,
in the face of
( concentrated government and media power )
the perpetuation of
( democratic ideals and beliefs )
is a triumph of
( propaganda )
yup!
Yup and it sorta
makes ya wonder why you even get up in the morning, so depressing.
This is a case of wishing you had the luxury a room temperature IQ and were a Mushroom, kept in the dark and fed a diet of shite. Fat dumb and happy, that's the life.
Now where can I get a cheap lobotomy? LOL
Change
Sadly I have to agree with you on this one. There is talk now on BB etc about voting for outsiders like Nader and you are right to say that this sort of idea is a fanciful dream. Even if Nader could win he would never get past the voting machines or even the ballot scanners. The only avenue left is civil war and they hold all the cards on that front also. Its all but over or maybe that should be its over but theres more change comming. The change Obama promised was never defined and I'm sure he knew full well what that change entails. It wasn't anything the american people would have voted for. I thought it might be that he couldn't speak about things the media would have immediately ended his campaing on but also thougnht it might be something no one would want. He has of course continued on the path of George Bush so in that way as you say there is no change. However this path is now at a point where there will be considerable and terrible changes for those in the west. Those sorts of changes have already affected many other nations and people's starting way back when.
in modern American
in modern American society,
in the face of
( concentrated government and media power )
the perpetuation of
( democratic ideals and beliefs )
is a triumph of
( propaganda )
Now that makes sense! Thanks, Winter. Why couldn't our propaganda friend have written it like that? I think I just answered my own question.
Spirituality, Change and Hope
In ealier times I used to comment on Bradblog re the electronic voting systems, then I commented here on other things. My comments often alluded to positive thinking and spirituality as a way of defeating the elites. In part I saw these as the only possible ways of defeating what seemed to be an unbeatable situation. In my mind there was no way americans had of getting change once those voting machines were installed. Even back then the only possible way of bringing about change seemed to be by some miracle. Could mass protest have changed things then? I very much doubt it. 1 million people had turned out to a protest for abortion rights and it was barely covered in the media. In Mexico people took to the streets re the election of Calderon. I think they had electronic voting there also. It didn't help.
People in the west used to be able to change things when their causes were pushed by Main Stream media but those days are long gone. Now we have a blockade around us that seems inpenetrable. That blockade consists of access to the corporate media, propaganda perpetrated through the corporate media, electronic voting machines, the Surveylence State in partnership with govenment agencies etc etc etc. So anyway folks that was what was behind my rational of positive thinking. I could not see any way to change what was happening within the frame of material reality hence my encouragement of some kind of miracle as the way. I may well have done harm in promoting those ideas but in my mind every real avenue for rebellion other than the miraculous had been sealed anyway.
I still believe a miracle is possible but of course it would also involve the efforts of many people. However without a miracle I feel the efforts of those same people would be ineffectual as is the case in countries like China, Burma etc where there has been no change along the lines of personal freedoms etc.
Of fried eggs and positive thinking
Hi Sally, I doubt very much you would have done any harm by promoting positive thinking in regard to our situation here on this earth. Unless you were advocating the type of positive thinking that proclaims you can fry an egg by just believing it so and I seriously doubt you were doing that!
Positive thinking assumes an optimistic outlook and while it has been shown in studies that pessimists see any given situation more realistically than optimists, optimists experience far more success or positive outcomes, if you like.
How is this? Well, positive people motivate themselves and others around them to give of their best and sometimes amazing things happen when people come together in an endeavour; synergism, we've all experienced it, I'm sure. And I wouldn't rule out divine intervention in this process, either. Jesus said something like, "whenever two or more come together in my name, there I am also".
Goethe was onto it, too!
"Concerning all acts of initiative and creation there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans; that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves, too.
All sorts of things occur to help one that would otherwise not have occured. A whole stream of events issues from the decision raising in one's favour all manner of unforseen incidents and meetings and material assistance which no man could have dreamed would come his way.
Whatever you do, or dream you can do, do it. Boldness has genius, power and magic in it.
Begin it now."
I know the truth of this.
The thing is we can't know the things that might have been that were avoided by people (and God) moving against them. The psychopaths of this world have been trying to spark WW3 for some years now to no avail even with all the resources available to them. I take heart at that. We can't know the all the good things that eventually flow on from our own desires and actions for peace, love and understanding.
No matter what happens in the wider world, there is a war on for our own individual souls, I believe. And despair and desolation are the "enemy's" weapons. But if you never give up (and you haven't and aren't about to), he can't win; you do
Fried Egg
i.e. Jesus said something like, "whenever two or more come together in my name, there I am also".
I don't do the church thing as the ideology is too narrow for my liking but I have believed in what Jesus taught for many years now in my own way.
Hey Goeth and I agree quite markedly. This has been my experience. I'm always thinking of 20 things at once and can never really decide which path to fiollow but when I've occasionally been focused things have turned up and turned out well.
Blessings & Light to you
Hi James and Winter:)
Hi James I’m very pleased to meet you. I think you and Winter have a very good blog here and I plan on visiting often:) I really enjoy discussing politics, can you tell LOL. Right I’ll give my reply a go:
Welcome, Irish (if I may call you that).
>>>Sure No bother:) Call me anything but late for dinner:)
James said:Yeah these papers and submissions on how to use the internet as a tool (or anything as a tool, including those on two legs) give me the horrors. And it is because the authors and the audience have no idea that the whole field is wrong.
>>>>You are very right there, Regular people know this is wrong, but only if they are aware of it. The war is online now and governments know this very well. In fact, the CIA owns part of facebook for this very reason. And recently the ADL managed to get a partnership with Youtube so that they can control what they deem as “hateful” content, translation=Anti Israel. Those are only two examples of hundreds sadly.
James said: That they are setting out to manipulate people; that there is nothing wrong with this and that this *has* to cause more problems than it solves. But then, their only problem is power - they just don't have enough of it
>>>>>Well, they have enough of it but there are still variables they cannot control, such as those people who don’t blog or spend big chunks of time online and of course those who are free thinkers and have the ability to question and see though things. It’s all about the young generation and controlling them online, using them for nefarious reasons under the mask of democracy and freedom that worries me. They can be organized and can be assembled in mass, they blog and tell others to join them. It’s a great way to influence change, but exactly who is behind that change and what it is for, is the problem.
For instance, the Berkman Center at Harvard has ties with Obama (long before he won the election) as do the people who work within the group and the groups affiliated with it. Why are they so interested in the blogosphere and how it can be used to influence elections in other countries? Take Iran, they have studied it since 2008 and have created a map of the Iranian blogosphere. And wait till you see who sponsors and funds them. Here’s a quote from this group:
1.This case study is part of a series produced by the Internet and Democracy project. The initial studies include three of the most frequently cited examples of the Internet’s influence on democracy.
2. Mapping Change in the Iranian Blogosphere
February 12th, 2009 (notice the date 5 mos before the elections)
the Internet may be shifting the power dynamics around Sharia debate in Iran. Hassan writes, “The more Iranian cyberspace grows, the more Sharia discourse becomes public and intersubjective and reaches out to the broader world.
http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/idblog/2009/02/12/mapping-change-in-the-ira...
http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/publications/2008/Mapping_Irans_Online_Publ...
Here some sponsors funders and associates of the Berkman Center:
Support for Current Activities
We warmly thank the following sponsors for their sponsorship of the Berkman Center's research and events. When sponsorship is project-specific, sponsors will also appear directly on project pages.
United States Department of State
Past Support
While the particular gift may have supported past work, we remain indebted to our past supporters for their generosity and collaboration.
The Open Society Institute of the Soros Foundation
Now I wrote about this on my blog months ago. America does not understand the Middle East, or Muslims. I’m all for change in Iran, and am not a supporter of Ahmadinejad, but any change must be “natural” change for it to last. Not outside interference, especially with the West. When any country or religion is under fire from outside they tend to close ranks, this stops change from taking place naturally. Americas former involvement in Iran is the cause what it is today after the Shah. Well, you get my point:
James said: That last quote you quoted! Doesn’t read quite right. I think the author has read one too many of his own bullshit papers. But in essence I think he is trying to say that unreality has triumphed over reality; lies over truth. Am I getting that right do you think, Irish?
>>>>> Exactly, that’s when propaganda is successful.
Again really enjoy your blog, I think I may have found a 2nd home:)
2nd home
I4P: thanks for your kind words.
You are welcome to hang around as much as you like, and to speak freely at all times, as long as you agree with me in every particular!
~~~
Seriously: Disagree all you wish. That's how we learn and as far as I'm concerned that's what we're here for.
Victim Of the "ADL / Youtube Partnership's real agenda"
Welcome Irish4Palestine
Thanks for those interesting comments. Heres one guy's experience with ADL/Youtube. The video starts it in the middle but I advise people watch the whole thing
I have a video blog (which is now seriously out of date) and it definitly looked like it was being targeted. Lots of the political (non racist ) videos were removed from youtube due to "terms of use violation" including a 2 min video by Ryschool (the author of the above ) on the racial colonies being built by Israel in Palestinion territory (the westbank). I did notice though that the same video's posted on Google as opposed to youtube which I added to the end of my posts ( full lenght as opposed to in parts ) were not removed. Of course its much easier to get people to look at the short ones. Watching part of a complete video chews up a whole lotta bandwidth as it continues to load ahead of your watching but I put the complete google video's in at the end of my posts incase people wanted to download the whole video. I don't know if anyone ever realised that or bothered. Oh well
"Again really enjoy your
"Again really enjoy your blog, I think I may have found a 2nd home:)"
)
Make yourself comfy, I4P (I like Winter's version. It sounds more personal
This is a community blog set up by our host NewJesusTimes (NJT) as an adjunct to Winter's blog and to store relevant comments and discussion. But all members can post blog entries here. There are forums, too, where particular issues can be revisited and various web articles can be stored. If you put up an article in a forum or start a new one, make sure you put a comment on it, too. That way it shows up in the comments roll on the side and we notice it then.
I have visited your blog and I'll give it more time very soon.
Ah Winter:)
you've touched me wee heart.
Should I ever wear out my welcome let me know LOL
Hello Irish and what they believe they know
Hello and welcome Irish ( I4P
). I just subscribed to your blog feed 2-3 weeks ago so glad to see you here. I was thinking at the time I bet this blogger would like the Winter Patriot 
.
Great find James!
Just before I left on holidays my lifelong friend, a very intelligent, career woman forwarded me an email with a video attached - "Muslim Demographics" (you can search for it on youtube if you want to watch it but I don't want to link to it). I believe it's the same video that Chris Floyd blogged about recently in his post Baby Talk:Mark Steyn Strikes Back for Islamaphopia. She also forwarded it to my 75 year old mother (who will believe it is important and truthful because a friend sent it to her and has most likely sent it on to others). The subject line was "Must See: the changing world" with the comment "Very interesting and certainly gives us a glimpse of where the anti Christ may come from!" - which was my first clue I wasn't going to like it. Turns out I was right. I was beside myself watching it, it really angered me, not so much I think because of the obvious bullshit and propaganda it was slinging but because I know my friend believed what it was saying and she thought she was passing on a warning to me about the growing "Muslim menace". I haven't replied back to her because I'm just not sure how to be diplomatic about how much I loathed what she sent to me. This is a perfect example of the triumph of propaganda over truth. People really believe they know what is going on in the world - they have swallowed the propaganda hook line and sinker. If my friend was armed with some truth (or even capable of some basic reasoning skills about this issue) I'm sure she would feel the same way I do about the video.
The bit you quoted James, summed this us nicely for me ""What is most stunning is the extent to which people who otherwise should or could know better are influenced by propaganda and, therefore, lost, but who believe falsely that they are not influenced, and found."
Stunned is certainly what I'm feeling along with despair that we have any chance to turn this around.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
NJT, I can sympathize
What a horrible -- and very common -- situation! Among other things, modern propaganda has the power to drive families apart, and clearly that is one of its main objectives.
Something similar happened to me early in 2008. The propaganda that arrived in my email was forwarded to me by my father and it blew a hole in our "relationship" which has not even begun to mend. Nor, as far as I can see, will it. So I don't imagine I can tell you anything helpful. But if you're interested in a glimpse of the pain it caused, you can read about it here:
Evil In Your In-Box? Thank The Pentagon
did you confuse me
Winter, did you confuse McJ with me? That wasn't my post, but I have some very similar anecdotes. Very intelligent people and good friends, honest caring people, who forward me propaganda about illegal immigrants or gun control or whatever is the hot-button flavor of the month. Occasionally I will take time to respond, and they end up agreeing with 95% of my points but still don't realize they are being used to mindlessly disseminate this crap that they get from whatever mailing lists or circle of friends they're involved with... oh well
And welcome irish4palestine - good to have you posting here!
it was the "J"
OOPS! Yes, I did confuse you. It was the "J" that fooled me. You both have one!
Many years ago I was getting my eyes examined and the eye-doctor said "You can't tell the boys from the girls, can you?" Apparently he was right!! ;-(
Sorry to have made such a blunder. Will look more carefully next time, especially if I see a "J".
lol
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
I remember Winter
I remember Winter. I had more than one friend forward me that particular piece of trash. I thought your replys were all terrific and for the record my favorite was the second - "OMG! One MF lie after another! GFY!!".
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
I like all your draft
I like all your draft replies, Winter, and you've arranged them in their probable order of effectiveness and reverse order of their probable satisfaction
Can I suggest another one (in 20/20 hindsight)?
"Dad, you've been punked again by satan, the Prince of War. You can tell it is from him because it is advocating War (not Peace, remember that?).
Every point made is a lie which is what you would expect, right?
And I can show you these lies if you want to know.
Satan has got you endorsing the breaking of just about every commandment given to Moses and both of the commandments given to us by Jesus. But that's what you would expect, right?
I can point them all out if you want.
Every "I don't care" is satan's message of hate.
He has even got you to agree with blasphemy. Do you realise that?
Do you want me to point this out ,too?
He has also enlisted you in encouraging others to do the same.
I'd be more than a little worried if I were you.
Any questions, please don't hesitate to contact me.
Signed,
Your chilly son from the other side.
p.s. How's it going over there? Hot enough for ya?"
The post script is optional
On family
I'm pretty sure my family thinks I'm a raving lunatic. They all know there are certain topics they best not talk to me about.
While visiting my brother this summer we broached the subject of Israel and Palestine, specifically the recent massacre in Gaza. He patiently explained to me all the standard FCM (Fawning Coporate Media) talking points about how Israel was acting in self defense because the Palestinians were constantly attacking them and how they had always been fighting over there and there was nothing we could do about it etc. etc. I know he believed his arguments were reasoned and insightful but what I heard was brown people (Arabs) are uncivilized, constantly attacking their neighbors for no other apparent reason than that's just the way they are. So I not so patiently explained to him that that was all bullshit and that the media LIES!!!. At which point, he let me know I didn't know what I was talking about - apparently because I'm hopelessly naive about these things as well as being a bleeding heart. I abruptly ended the conversation by explaining I had done copious reading on the subject (and suggested I could pass on some info for him to read) because really the whole exchange was rather pointless - he 'knows' what he knows and nothing I said was going to change that.
...my minds made up don't confuse me with any facts...g-r-r-r.
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
McJ, you wrote,- "he 'knows'
McJ, you wrote,-
"he 'knows' what he knows and nothing I said was going to change that."
Maybe the best tactic with people "who know" is to do the Socratic thing - ask questions. "That's interesting. How does that work?" "How do you know that?" "Does this accord with your religion? Where?" that sort of thing.
We know they don't know. Give them a chance to prove it
Thanks James
That's good advice. I'm not sure I'd have much success with my brother cause he knows how to push my buttons.
I only see him once or twice a year and even then we don't have a whole lot of time for any serious discussions. He's been a great brother but he is very stubborn when he thinks he right. Next time (if there is one) I'll get myself a strategy and try to exercise some self discipline. I wish I could bring you with me. 
I like the idea of giving "them a chance to prove it".
"The most unpleasant truth in the long run is a far safer traveling companion than the most agreeable falsehood." Emerson
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